Asheville ECO-GREEN Real Estate

Everyone with your hands up...There's a hint right there in the story...Makes you think about the issue of environmental knowledge for real estate professionals, eh?

Manufacturing companies complain about the tough standards but there is nothing more disappointing the polluted waterways.  So... I'm lazy today - Raising my hand instead of looking for hints!

Dan~ Hint-hint..."breezy" as in use your nose =)

(2)

Ann~

Good eye! Or should I say "nose" LOL..Bigger issue here is due diligence. Is this an item for consideration in Flagstaff?

Hazardous Waste into the water...stink?  From where? Some kind of plant down/up river?

Another interesting one to keep us on our toes.  :)  How come you get all of the interesting sales?  Are we supposed to guess and possibly ruin the surprise?   There are a couple of communities here where on a breezy day it might make you question whether or not you would want to buy there.  My guess is one of two things. 

Hi janeAnn! Love the new photo! Landfills huh?

Landfills. Such a shame. Great post! There are a couple of nice areas here that have a less than welcome smell.

Sally~ 

You are a very good guesser...but y'all are just gonna' have to wait until I get 20  more guesses..or until midnight tonight...whichever comes first =)

Stephanie~

aha...like Sally, YOU also  are a very good guesser...but y'all are just gonna' have to wait until I get 20  more guesses..or until midnight tonight...whichever comes first =)

Lysa`

Smart cookie! But maybe it is something else...answer soon to be revealed...

Talk around the Cary area of underground oil tanks that once heated the homes that have been banded are polluting our drinking water now a days.

From the photos I wouldn't say noise contamination is a factor...

Your pictures are always so beautiful! But I guess this one could be labeled "Appearances can be deceiving." So I don't have an answer but it involves air pollution?

Yes, it is very beautiful...  I hope it is not all of the above.  Please tell us :-)

Susan~ 

For sure LUSTs are a "biggie" for real estate professionals when it comes to due diligence. One of my brokers listed a home not long ago and found the original filling tap for an underground storage tank in an addition/remodel part of the-home behind a couch! You really have to have your eyes open, eh?

Jeff~

Good-eye. I bet that hardly anyone sees what you have seen in the photo. More on this later.

It must be either a pulp mill or the county municipal landfill or perhaps a hog farm? I say it`s the dump.

Dena~ 

Good call...definitely pollution of some kind...nose and ears will tell the tale...check back in an hour or so for the answer =) and thanks for the nod on my photos...these happen to have been taken by our photographer at the firm who goes with us on our site evaluations......

JT~

You were there... =)

After seeing your response to Jeff comment....is that really what it looks like on both sides of the river?  I didn't see that at first, my attention was drawn to the mountains.  :) 

Albert~ 

Let's get a few more comments and then I'll tell y'all what you saw/didn't see in the photo...there are now tow or three good hints...i can tel you THAT

JaneAnne - out of curiosity -- how close would the nearest coal burning plant be to your site?

Would it be like in the next state???

Breezy eh...well I'll guess Landfill too...but then again it could be leaky storage tanks!

Mary~ 

I will have to ask the others who did the site evaluation with me...but you are definitely ON to something!!! Good sleuthing...

I love to research and can't wait to hear the answer!

Mary~

No...triple NO and boo-hoo..NO! and not only that...a new coal-fired plant may be in the works...unless we who live here can remedy our use of energy during-peak times...or my son's invention/solution can be applied...

janeAnne, just curious what am I seeing at the bottom of the picture near the river? Train tracks or roads?

JaneAnne - sounds like your son is as bright as you. I would love to hear about his invention. Not only that but how can they be proposing a coal-fired plant when you are already suffering from the pollution from neighboring states that are causing asthma, breathing problems in what should be one of the cleanest "AIR"eas of the US? -- not the manufacturing plants we are accustomed to in the "rust belt."

That is just about as ludicrous as the "tax" applied to the "energy tax credit" builders get in Michigan.

That was the same question I wanted to know but I didn't know if we were supposed to be secretive.  :)  LOL.  it have something to do with where you were standing when the photo was taken on the bottom photo? 

Nitrous Oxide????

Ah...triple NO -

Nitrates in the water!!! Ammonia!!! Much like BP is dumping into Lake Michigan.

Did I catch that last clue?

Everyone...

Oh MY...I am grinning and giggling...what wonderful sleuths y'all are! I was  going to reveal the challenge with this property...but now...I think ...I have to wait  for a little bit to see what you  come up with next! Mary...isn't nitrous oxide laughing gas?? Is that why I am laughing??

Everyone...

Oh MY...I am grinning and giggling...what wonderful sleuths y'all are! I was  going to reveal the challenge with this property...but now...I think ...I have to wait  for a little bit to see what you  come up with next! Mary...isn't nitrous oxide laughing gas?? Is that why I am laughing??

Oh, I think you are seriously sitting there laughing at all of us. You just like messing with our heads! And I bet you do this again soon.........; )  It's the teacher in you.

LOL.  That's funny.

my capture is love-in-a-mist

I think I'm trying too hard now...but it reminds me of a property I had some clients ALMOST buy.  It was a waterfront property on a small neighborhood pond.  The community was all on septic and afte nosing around I found out that the septic systems (always have to drain somewhere)  drained into the pond.  Yuck.  Needless to say,  they didn't buy on that pond. 

But they did buy here...

Stephanie! Beautiful property you sold!

JaneAnne - that's funny! and to think I started it! I think you are right! NO is laughing gas! But what is NO3?

What is Nitrate?

Nitrate (NO3-) is a water-soluble molecule made up of nitrogen and oxygen. It is formed when nitrogen from ammonia or other sources combines with oxygenated water. Nitrate is a natural constituent of plants and is found in vegetables at varying levels depending on the amount of fertilizer applied and on other growing conditions. According to the World Health Organization, most adults ingest 20-70 milligrams of nitrate- nitrogen per day with most of this coming from foods like lettuce, celery, beets, and spinach. When foods containing nitrate are eaten as part of a balanced diet the nitrate exposure is not thought to be harmful. (credits: http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/water/dwg/nitrate.htm)

What kind of run off do you have from those roads? Do they salt them in the winter to prevent accidents and make them passable?

But what is the smell? Did I take a wrong turn from the road I was originally on????? You are killing me! 

 

Good guesses everyone...loved this field trip...happy you got to share our site evaluation...and thanks for participating...you all get dark chocolate and a fig newton.

Oh, oh, give us another one!

Excellent post as always! Thanks for taking me on a treasure hunt tonight and helping my learning experience along. You are a wonderful teacher and coach -- a LEEDer for certain!

That's too bad about the landfill.  Thanks for the field trip and the Dark Chocolate!

 

My guess is Hazardous Waste.  Hope to here the answer soon.  Thanks for the challenge! 

JaneAnne - I have nothing to add but this was a fun fieldtrip for a Green newbie - getting Greener everyday. :-)  

I once walked some property that did seem to have a certain aroma...

It turned out to be the natural result of one of nature's own recycling mechanisms.  Seems there had been at least two deer struck by cars on the nearby road.  They must have staggered onto this property to die.   The smell of decaying flesh is unmistakable, but fortunately easy to remove, unlike a neighboring landfill.

My guess is also dumping of hazardous waste in a remote spot where no one would have cared when that was going on.  They like to do that in remote sink holes in Missouri; and they used to get away with it. 

Why does the owner NOT want development, but wants a Preserve.  Less snooping around?

Edited: Yes, I saw that picture of the landfill mountain.  We're seeing more and more of those in the midwest. 

Some hazardous waste is from older projects such as mining.  My husband built a home for a client who had to have a lot of the surface removed (Clean-up funds did it) because of an old copper mine.  There was a great deal of copper contamination.  Even cleaned up, DH had them use copper flashing on the foundation because there was enough natural copper in the area to 'eat' galvanized flashing.  Many times, even though it looks pretty hopeless in the beginning, things can be reclaimed. 

 

I'm coming in a little late, but my guess would have been a landfill much too close to the property.  Especially if you could smell it on that breezy day.  I didn't see the railroad tracks, but that would be slightly less of a nuisance, IMHO.

janeAnne,   This blog was a very educational one to say the least ! I love your style of writing.  I think it's a shame how so many areas put their landfills on the shores of water bodies in the past.  My city and the neighbouring one (where I grew up), both have landfills on the shores of the Bay of Quinte.  They closed them in the 1970s and put topsoil over the mounds of garbage. Then they planted trees and turned them into parks.

In the winter the best toboggan hill here is the the tallest pile of top-soil covered garbage !!!  What it does to the water quality is horrendous...all that leaching going on...

Jo 

Grand Rapids Michigan has a dump site - The Butterworth Dump Site - that has had cleanup efforts and they are trying to turn it into recreational property. Helmuts On tried for two years to get approval to put a BMX track on the land. The organization received approval from several of the government agencies involved. The issue that failed the proposal was liability. They wanted to transfer the liability for any future cleanup to this non-profit organization. Bye-Bye! NOT a good deal!

Ok, what do you all think of this one.  We have what used to be a toxic dump site here in our suburbs.  The materials are known carcinogens.  They tried to localize it years ago so that a community could go in near it.  Within the past 10 years they ended up doing a drainage easement to prevent flooding over a large area and while constructing that they found out that the "toxic plume" was spreading and continues to.   The gov says that it does not have to be disclosed until it is cleaned up.  ????  The Utility Districts water wells are about 100 or so feet below the plume and not affected right now. 

How should that be handled in a real estate transaction in the area. 

Dena~

Mary~          

Stephanie~

David~

Cyndee~

 

Here's a big Thumbs Up to y'all...thank you for your comments and for "energizing" this BLOG...each in your own special way.

janeAnne,

A big thumbs up to you too for energizing the greenies in the rain!

Rich~

You mentioned "...a certain aroma..."..( non-toxic) and that brings up an interesting point...hog farms, sheep farms, dairy farms...all have a certain aroma...I am wondering how many of you think that this is a "material fact"...???

Ooh, good question.  Is that fact that there is an aroma a material fact...or is the fact there the farm is there one.  It seems to me that there could be many things that affect surrounding properties of farms.  Although I do not handle too many land properties...We did diclose the fact that a residential home I had listed had a cattle ranch behind it, and another was a donkey farm. 

JudyAnn~   you and Stephanie~ and Jo-Anne~ and Mary~

are bringing up more good points! You commented "...Many times, even though it looks pretty hopeless in the beginning, things can be reclaimed. ..."  Mary noted how one effort she knows of is to make a recreational area , Steph~brought up known carcinogens and the water table, and Jo-Anne had a similar concern... 

Let's open this up further discussion ...OK I'm starting a list of potential "material facts" about  which real estate professionals should learn  more...

1. brownfields...when and how do we reclaim them?
2. water table and leaking toxic substances
3. a certain aroma...when does it become a material fact

Jim and Maria~ 

Like you, in terms of "nuisance"...I see the sounds from trains passing as subjective

I have to admit that I need to learn more about Brownfields...I know very little.  I am glad that I am attending class on this post.  :)  Have to go to the office now, will check back.

janeAnne, I'm thoroughly enjoying reading this post and the comments!  What came to mind for me was perhaps some kind of agricultural farming like a hog farm or turkey farm.  Last year, one of my clients almost bought a gorgeous scenic lot.  Fortunately, one more trip with the wind blowing in the right direction revealed through the "sniff test" what our eyes could never have seen.

JaneAnne - Lola's post reminded me of the brochure Ottawa County Michigan (my home) created in 2003 in response to all the calls and complaints they were receiving regarding tractors, farmers and smells in our rural area. They actually produced a brochure that you see by visiting this link which included a Scratch and Sniff that smells like, well, MANURE! This brochure made the news around the country!

Being on the lending side, what are "material facts?" I am not familiar with the term although I think I am getting the idea!

I'm sorry...but LOL!!!  Scratch and Sniff Manure Brochures?  ROFL on that one.  Talk about a marketing technique...

Stephanie - You bring up an interesting point about the toxic contamination and water. Here is what is happening in Manton Michigan to homes in the area where wells have been contaminated by the landfill. I have a cabin in the area - fortunately we are south and west of where the contamination has moved. People are having a hard time selling their homes in the area and it is many times a question of concern when people are looking for property in the area.

You raise a good question.

...just a side note ...

our real estate  firm specializes in re-development projects. Earlier this year, most of the ECO Team at our firm attended the Brownfields Conference (held here in Asheville) in our continued effort to educate ourselves in a matter that concerns us all... I'll do a post if y'all would like some information on that Conference...

JaneAnne - I would love to learn from you. We have many Brownfield areas in Michigan and I am quite dumb about them!

janeAnne,

I always find your posts informative and I would love to hear about the Brownfields Conference.  I have to admit...I took a course that went over all of that but I do not remember any of it.  (you can slap my hand  :)  I meant to review it today so that I could add something to the conversation but I didn't get to it.  I still will review it though so maybe I will understand the one you are going to do a little better.

So, to make a short comment long...YES!  I would love to hear about the conference!!  :)

Dena~

and everyone else who wants a few more of my "great"  questions ...Stephanie just reminded me of this post...There are a few reliable stumpers there...let me know...

 Steph~ and Mary~ (and anyone interested in Brownfields) be happy to do a post on this and/or checkout a few I've written brownfields (3)

Lola~

 Noses are a good-thing, eh? We have deed restrictions that prevent hog farming in many areas. Last night I saw a piece on URTV (local TV produced by locals) on organic hog farming...small-scale and wondered about neighboring land...I'll be checking that out soon.

 

Thanks janeAnne,

I read over them....I am going to read over my course again.  It is starting to come back.  Phase 1, Phase 2, etc.  I think I'll do it tomorrow.  Today is the last day of summer vacation.  :)

janeAnne,

 

Thank you for your post, it deserves all of this attention, as does the issue of reclaiming brownfields. Personally, this is on of my favorite parts of working in real estate. 

Ok, I'm going through the historic contamination section now and this is still unclear.  However, this is what I have so far.  Let me know if I'm on the right track.

A phase 1 assessment will show if a phase 2 is recommended.  If the samples taken during a phase 2 show that indeed there is contamination and to what extent...then it is at this point that interested parties can establish options and costs properly cleanup and redevelop the land? 

It is from there that I'm confused.  Some properties are eligible for TBA Funding through EPA.  I'm lost from here on out.

Anyone care to tackle the next part?  Unless of course I'm way off track so far...then anyone want to chime in??? 

There was a landfill!!!!! Such a shame. :(

Steph~

Appreciate that you noticed and went after the information on Brownfields. This is a subject that the ECO team at our firm finds of great interest. We all attended the Brownfields Conference here in Asheville this year, and keep a close watch on the "news" when it comes to this subject. 

Your research turned up good information for REALTORS (an our clients),,,here's the challenge...can you identify such properties in your area? let me know!

Pamela~

I used to muse over large messes on  or by rivers......what would inspire a company/community to so this?...convenience?

JaneAnne, I love your list.  I want to add one for the Lake Norman Area: water; source, quantity, quality, depth of aquifers.  Water shortages are no fun:(

janeAnne,  I will nose around and see what I can find.  :)

Everyone...

 

Here's a SUMMARY  and a thank you. I appreciate how this conversation is unfolding... We began by exploring

 REALTORS'®Due Diligence in terms of- .

• Leaking Underground Storage Tanks   (LUSTs)                           
• Landfills
• Superfund Sites
• Water Quality Assurance Revolving Priority Fund Sites
• EPA Proposed Superfund Sites (CERCLIS)
• Hazardous Waste Sites
• Hazardous Waste

 

 

 

 

 

that opened up comments/commentaries on everything from air pollution and sink holes to Brownfields.

So that's where this conversation is focused now...Brownfields...

 Just above, Stephanie shared her research saying that, "

A phase 1 assessment will show if a phase 2 is recommended.  If the samples taken during a phase 2 show that indeed there is contamination and to what extent.."...and asked..."is at this point that interested parties can establish options and costs properly cleanup and redevelop the land?" I asked one-of my resources about that...

ANSWER: You have the phase assessments right. Phase 2 does provide insight to the potential remediation necessary and costs. However, there would probably be more testing in developing the ultimate remediation plan. Some people refer to these as phases 3 and 4.

For EPA's funding role. it gets a little more sticky (political).

EPA will not fund a private cleanup directly to developer. They might fund thru a grant to a municipality that has an interest in the project. NOW some States will fund private cleanups directly if there is a strong public interest component. There are also tax credits that flow directly to a developer for cleaning prequalified properties. (for example: South Carolina has them. North Carolina doesn't.)

Most of the Brownfield Developers, my resource tells me, prefer the upside coming from the ultimate value of the redevelopment.

 

Thank you janeAnne for clarifying that for us.  Now, even if the EPA does not fund it, do they somehow oversee the process?  And I need to try and find a property in my neck of the woods for this.

So...is contamination in the water table next?  Can't wait!!

I will keep coming back to learn more..you guys are just so full of knowledge....great for me to pick up on. Thanks!  I still think it's a bunch of stuff in a landfill from some kind of plant that produces harzardous stuff. (did I miss something in the comments?) And the public interest would be a strong "part of" getting something done for the cleanup.

The train track sounds positive.  Just scoop that nasty hazardous waste up, train it on up North and dump it on GW Bush's front yard.  I've got a shovel! 

"a certain aroma...when does it become a material fact" 

I would think it would have to do with what the aroma is.  What does everyone else think?

Excellent janeAnne,  most of those sites are available on my profile

Oops, my comment above

This is a good compilation, thank you. As for brownfields, we have quite a few, this is an industrial area after all. Cleveland has taken charge of a few spots and reclaimed them for future, safe commercial development.

I know there was a large area along one of the rivers in Pittsburgh that was toxic and yet one of the best locations; would have been perfect for housing. They reclaimed the entire area and now it's a thriving community. Unfortunately it's all rather costly isn't it. Have a great vacation, Jane Anne!

...Stephanie asked...

"...even if the EPA does not fund it, do they somehow oversee the process?..."THAT is a might fine question. It's been a couple days since I checked in. I am wondering if you have found out the answer to this question...

...a Question...

how many of y'all are dealing with meth labs as part of your due diligence?

CERTIFICATION PROGRAM
ECO - Environmental Consultant

Here in North Carolina we have a Certification Program for environmentally conscious REALTORS®. It  allows REALTORS® to obtain an ECO Certification. ECO stands for Environmental Consultant. REALTORS® who obtain the ECO certificationundergo a significant training program (36 classroom/site evaluation/in-the-field training) in order to better prepare  to consult with and refer to experts and share information with their clients on environmental issues affecting their real estate transactions. Next month the core courses are being offered.

Resources for Healthy Choices: Environmental Issues in Real Estate
Oct. 10, 2007. 8:30 a.m. - 12:30 p.m.  This 4-hour core class is needed in order to take the next two-day seminar. This class is approved for CE elective credit with the North Carolina Real Estate Commission. Registration is $50. Download a registration form.

Inside and Outside: Environmental Issues and Real Estate
Oct. 11-12, 2007 from 8:30 a.m. to 5:30 p.m.  Topics include indoor and outdoor air, land conservancy, soil erosion, water issues, septic issues, lead, asbestos and radon, pest control, green building and renovation, energy efficiency, and many others. Instructors: Experts from various NC organizations and companies specializing in environmental concerns. Registration is $200. Download a registration form.

TOTAL core credits for both courses: 20 Hours

Hi janeAnne,  I have not found a solid answer on if EPA oversees it or not.  It discusses how it is political and they will fund it if the EPA feels as though they can get recuperate money and if not then it will have to be privately funded.  The information drops off from there and is extremely vague.  :(

WOW, another amazing thought.  METH Labs as due diligence?  Is that something that we can disclose?  Can that somehow in the Courts 'Sick Twisted Mind' get turned into Steering? 

janeAnne,  How often do the core classes come around?

Steph~

A couple/three times a year...Hope y'all can come...would love to have dinner. You will love the instructors!

METH Labs .... part of the core training and as I recall, either is , or soon may be considered a material fact...

Do they share how in the world we are supposed to know about where they are? 

And, what are the effects of Meth Labs to neighboring homes?

OH, and are we going to find out when a "particular odor"  is considered a material fact?  ;-)

I love the Manure Scratch & Sniff!  I want some!  Even if I'm in Texas!  The brochure appears similar in intent to Practical Tips For Living In A Country Community (which I'm having printed and distributing, per the permissions on the bottom back page). 

I think I'll print out the Manure Scratch & Sniff one and take it to our city council and suggest we do one, as well, since we're being inundated by people moving to the country.  Along with literature from Dark Sky for those folks who move to the country and are afraid of the dark.

Landfill was my first thought about the property in question, by the way, simply because I've lived in the country long enough to know that there were personal landfills on most properties way back when.  Didn't think about a huge one nearby, though.  Bummer.

 

...Stephanie asked...

"...even if the EPA does not fund it, do they somehow oversee the process?..."THAT is a mighty fine question. ...I see this has been a great and challenging question...SO...I contacted my resource...who spends his time working in the brownfields cleanup department (not at the local department store)... 

Here is a reply from an expert"..." ...you simply don't ask simple questions. EPA's participation varies by which program is supervising the cleaning up of the property. That is determined by who, when and why the site became contaminated. Several examples:

If site had a hazardous wastemanagement permit, the state would generally if EPA gave them authority to manage RCRA programs. If the site is in superfund, its all EPA." 

My resource also told me that he is involved in a  superfund cleanup .."Since it also includes dredging material out of the river, " he explained, "the state also has jurisdiction. Because the State has authority over the river, where the contaminated land portion was EPAs.'

Well, that makes sense.  Thanks for clearing it up and getting with your contact.  :)  Just goes to show that it is not an easy topic and it is good to have someone to go to as an expert. 

Carole~ 

In terms of cost for reclaiming brownfields, once a site has been identified by a Phase II ..and this is just what I surmise...the costs might be substantially less for the land than if a site were not identified......and so possibly might balance out for a developer ...

Tricia~

You brought up an interesting point...personal landfills ...I had thought of straight-piping into streams...but had not thought of the garbage heaps that folks collected/burned/dumped out on the back forty.

Diane~

Thanks for your contribution to our list for due diligence where properties border water...you added"water; source, quantity, quality, depth of aquifers.."

janeAnne,

Have a good time on your journey and take lots of GREEN photos for us.  :)

Don't forget the sewer treatment plant and 2 Jails (prisons) are also on the way there.  Oh yeah, Mr. Buyer if you see some guys in orange jump suits don't invite them in for tea. Buncombe county land fill uses inmate labour during the week.

Great blog! So many sites have been contaminated because regulations did not exist and people never thought enough to care about out planet! I know of large contaminated areas that will never be built upon! It is sad, what we have done to our earth.

janeAnne,  Our new Seller's Disclosure was just released and Meth Labs are on there.  :)  I wonder if guilty persons would really disclose that.

My next question about this would be regarding foreclosures.  They still don't have to disclose obviously. 

janeAnne, My computer was down when you posted this so I missed all the fun, but I caught myself up by reading all the comments.

Whenever I sell a business where pollution is a real possibility (auto care related, dry cleaner, light manufacturing) I recommend that the buyer get phase 1 & 2 environmental reports. This can cost approximately $3,000.00 but it definitely worth the cost. The buyer can either walk away or negotiate a clean-up or price reduction. This doesn't necessarily have to involve a land purchase. A lessee can "inherit" liability for pollution.

Bill Roberts

Bill - good information. There's that third party verification again!

Bill - good information. There's that third party verification again!

we MISSSSS YOU JaneAnne, hope to see you soon!

Ditto. :)

Personally, I hoping for some great pictures and stories from Ireland. Think she'll share?

I would bet my paycheck that she'll take us through another educational teaser! What do you think she is cooking up?

Mary,  LOL!  :)  Sounds like fun!

Yep, she's probably watching this conversation cook'n something up.

WOW --114 comments!!! 

You really do write a great post janeAnne (not that you don't already know that)!